Jon Fansmith: Hello and welcome to dotEDU, the higher education policy podcast from the American Council on Education. I'm your host, Jon Fansmith, and in a little bit, we'll be joined by the ... very exciting interview actually. We're going to be joined by the assistant secretary for postsecondary education at the Department of Education, the newish assistant secretary at the Department of Education, Dr. Nasser Paydar, and he's going to talk to us about a range of issues that I think will be of a lot of interest to our members and our listeners. So, hold on for that. But before we get there, I am joined as always by my esteemed, brilliant, talented, amazing colleagues, Mushtaq Gunja and Sarah Spreitzer. How are you both doing today?
Mushtaq Gunja: I'm great, thanks Jon. How are you, Sarah?
Sarah Spreitzer: I'm good, wondering why it's so busy with congress out and it being so nice outside, I just want to go outside, take a nice long walk, but unfortunately, I'm stuck here at my computer. I mean, I love talking to you guys, of course. But otherwise, it seems extremely busy for a time before the midterm elections.
Jon Fansmith: Yeah, without Congress in session, it seems like there's way too much going on that still involves Congress somehow.
Sarah Spreitzer: Yeah, exactly.
Mushtaq Gunja: It's very difficult because I'm trying to get through all three episodes of Love Is Blind: After the Altar, and I've only gotten the first two ... through the first two, but I did hear that Love Is Blind is auditioning here in DC for its next season. This is very exciting, I think. Jon, Sarah, you guys are looking at me quizzically. You're not watching Love Is Blind?
Jon Fansmith: I don't even know what that is.
Sarah Spreitzer: Yeah, I guess I have to. And I guess if you know any of our listeners actually get chosen, I hope they'll drop us an email to let us know that they're going to be in the DC edition of Love Is Blind.
Jon Fansmith: Is this something-
Mushtaq Gunja: It's like Indian Matchmaker, but it's worse.
Sarah Spreitzer: Okay, I will definitely watch it then.
Jon Fansmith: I was going to say, is this something I should feel bad about not knowing? Is this part of the cultural zeitgeist that I'm aw unaware of?
Mushtaq Gunja: Definitely part of the cultural zeitgeist, definitely should not feel bad. Sarah, what is keeping you so busy, back to higher ed?
Sarah Spreitzer: Oh, so Mushtaq, it's a lot of things, but one thing kind of involving Congress but not involving Congress is the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals actually acted last week on Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals or DACA. I think that happened on Tuesday. And unfortunately the court, not surprisingly, but unfortunately, they found that the DACA program was illegal, that it had been set up by ... The way that it had been set up by the Obama administration, that because it was done outside of the scope of Congress and outside the existing statute, that the program is illegal. But the Biden administration had, as part of their charge to preserve and fortify DACA, had just gone through a rule making. And so, they have a final rule around the DACA program that's actually supposed to go into effect October 31st. Doesn't really change anything, but would really preserve and fortify that Obama era program.
And so, as a result of that, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals bounced it back to the lower court because of that rule-making process. And so now, we are waiting to see what the lower court is going to do, but ultimately all the advocates believe this is going to get kicked to the Supreme Court. And of course, unfortunately that means that our DACA recipients continue to exist in limbo, without any action from Congress and new applicants for the DACA program cannot come into the program. And so really, it's just those people who had registered before the Trump administration had struck the program down. And so, our DACA population, registered to DACA population, is really dwindling. And we know that there are students that are coming into college age, that are interested in postsecondary education and are not able to register under DACA because there is a freeze on new applications. So, that's my cheery update. DACA, sorry-
Mushtaq Gunja: Yeah, we should put a link to our, Remember The Dreamers podcast in the show notes. Podcast, the Remember The Dreamers website in our show notes.
Sarah Spreitzer: Yes, yeah, we have a website that allows somebody to go in and send a message to their members of Congress, that Congress really needs to take action and act because if Congress was able to pass legislation that would actually put the DACA program into statute, then we would actually have an existing program that would no longer live with this uncertainty.
Jon Fansmith: And Sarah, this is going to go to the Supreme Court, we assume, right?
Sarah Spreitzer: Mm-hmm.
Jon Fansmith: Do we have a sense of what that timing looks like? I mean, the frustration obviously for DACA recipients about being in limbo and not having their status ultimately decided, obviously terrible for them to deal with. Is this something that we have years more to wait or do you think this is something the Supreme Court might move too quickly?
Sarah Spreitzer: I think that they will likely move quickly. I'm looking to Mushtaq as our in-house lawyer to understand, I mean, I don't think it can go on the docket for this session of the Supreme Court, but I would think in the next session in 2023 it would be on the docket. Is that right?
Mushtaq Gunja: Yeah, it feels like a year away. I mean, it's probably ... theoretically the court could take this up quickly if they wanted. I mean the issue is ripe. The litigants are in real peril. They're suffering real harms right now. So, I mean theoretically, this could go up quickly, but the politics of when these things go up is always a little bit tricky. I'm not sure, I assume that the court will take this up. I'm not sure what the court will do with it when they do. I mean this legislation around Dreamers has always been really politically popular, even if they can't get all comprehensive immigration reform done. And so, will the Supreme Court take yet another really unpopular action and strike down this program? I don't know. So, I think they might want to kick that can down the road for as long as they could. So, I could see us having another year of this just total limbo period unless Congress acts they should.
Sarah Spreitzer: Yeah Mushtaq, the last time the Supreme Court considered a DACA case, it was in relation to the Trump administration striking down the DACA program. And what the Supreme Court found was that the Trump administration did have the power to strike down the program, but struck it down incorrectly, right?
Mushtaq Gunja: Yep.
Sarah Spreitzer: They didn't actually follow the correct procedure. And so, it's been in danger for quite some time. One of the questions is if the Supreme Court does strike it down, what if they do a similar action that they did last time, where they said, "The program can be struck down, it was illegal. However, we understand that there are people on these two year deferred action renewals and so therefore, we'll give them six months or we'll give six months to DHS to wind down the program." And so, would it be an immediate action? Would there be a timeframe where they would require DHS to wind it down and give Congress time to act? Which I think is what is always the hope. And as you referenced, Mushtaq, there's a lot of bipartisan support for this, but I think given the fact that some candidates are making immigration and border security front and center as part of the midterm elections, there's likely not going to be any action until after midterms.
Jon Fansmith: Which, speaking of the midterm elections, we generally do this every couple years on this podcast. This will be the last time we're recording before the elections themselves, Congress not due back until November 14th. If we are counting on Congress to enact legislation to protect DACA recipients, the makeup of the next Congress is going to be a pretty big factor in that. So, I am curious to hear from both of you. You both follow these things very closely. Predictions, what do we think is going to happen?
I think it's such an interesting election year because frankly, up until the spring, it seemed like red wave was everybody's take on what was going to happen. And then the Dobbs decision came out, things started shifting. The Biden administration got a number of accomplishments. Now it looks like it's a whole lot more uncertain about what we might actually see when all the votes are counted. November 8th, November 9th. So Mushtaq, Sarah. Predictions, what do you think, house, Senate, split, what are we going to look at?
Mushtaq Gunja: Jon tried to kick it to us first, but after that nice introduction of the question, Jon, what do you think?
Jon Fansmith: Well, I will say because I have made a brilliant prediction a year ago that I'm sticking with, which is actually looking better and better as things develop. I think Democrats gain one or two seats in the Senates, still a very narrow margin and that they lose the house. But I think where before, the margin in the house was looking more like something like 25, 30 seat margin, I think you're probably getting to a pretty close 10 to 15 seat margin. That would be my guess. So, I'd say Republicans by 12, let's say in the house, and Democrats pick up a seat, two seats, we'll say and go to 51 in the Senate.
Sarah Spreitzer: I agree with Jon, I'm not going to fool around with margins because the only margin that really matters is if you can get to 60 votes in the Senate.
Jon Fansmith: Coward.
Sarah Spreitzer: And I don't either party is going to be able to do that. I think that the house flips and I'm interested to know who's going to chair various committees, that's what I'm thinking about right now. And I think in the Senate, even if it does flip, there's no way Republicans get 60 votes. And even with that, we have President Biden in the White House, who would veto anything coming out on a real Republican agenda. And so, I think any way you look at it, you're looking at a log jam but I do ... yeah. And then of course everyone's going to be campaigning for the next election as soon as they get back.
Jon Fansmith: Which will be a presidential election too. And Mushtaq?
Mushtaq Gunja: I think it's really hard to bet against history and on an off-year midterm election, the party in power typically loses seats. I think that's going to clearly happen here in the House, it seems to me. And I think I'd go the other way, Jon. I think that the Republicans are going to pick up a seat in the Senate too. And it's really about history and it's really about sadly, gas prices. So, the clearest correlation it seems to me to Biden's approval rating and the mood in the country, is really tied very closely to gas prices and this new OPEC action that happened last week to cut oil production. Even though it's going to take effect in November, the oil markets, which I know Jon, you follow just as close as you follow the Phillies, have already responded and the price of a barrel of oil is up, which I think will ultimately influence gas prices too. I think Democrats improving chances over the summer, probably had a lot to do with Dobbs and had something to do with falling gas prices and with gas prices going up a little bit, I'm becoming less and less optimistic about Democrats' chances.
And it's very funny to think that it, after all the analysis and everything else and all the campaigning, it's a lot of it just boils down to is gas 3.50 or 3.80 a gallon? So, that's my story, I'm sticking to it. So, we'll see. So Jon, you thought that the Dems would pick up a seat in the Senate and the Republicans would pick up 12ish seats in the house, I think I'd probably ... or plus one in the Senate or plus 20 in the house and Sarah was a coward. I think I heard you call her, Jon, and didn't give us anything.
Jon Fansmith: Oh yeah, if that was unclear, Sarah is a coward, yeah.
Sarah Spreitzer:Thanks. Thanks for that, Jon.
Mushtaq Gunja: Right, Sarah?
Sarah Spreitzer: What, that I'm a coward?
Mushtaq Gunja: No, you're not going to get in the prediction business. That's not going to spur you? We're trying to egg you on, we're trying to instigate.
Sarah Spreitzer: Mushtaq, we've had this discussion every election year. Well, I'm not really into politics. I'm not one of those people. I mean this is like when you guys start talking about sports, I'm not one of those people that watches the different polling sites and tries to figure it out. I'm only concerned with how it's going to impact me, who's going to chair the committees I care about and will I be able to get legislation passed?
Jon Fansmith: I just want to go on the record as reiterating, Sarah, you said as a vice president in government relations at the American Council on Education, you're not into politics. Just confirming for us, because I wasn't sure I heard you correctly.
Sarah Spreitzer: Yeah, I'll stand by that. I'll stand by that.
Jon Fansmith: Okay, no comment. Just making sure the record's clear there.
Mushtaq Gunja: Well, I think this is as good a place to end this conversation as any and looking forward to this really great conversation with Secretary Paydar. Jon, anything to close us out?
Jon Fansmith: Yeah, no, just before we come back from the break with Secretary Paydar, Assistant Secretary Paydar, I would note that while we will not have another podcast before the election, so this was our last chance to get our predictions on record, on October 25th, we will be doing one of ACE's public policy pop-ups, me and Terry and I don't know, Sarah, are you on that one too?
Sarah Spreitzer: I don't think so.
Jon Fansmith: No. In fact, I don't think it's Terry either. I think it's going to be actually focused on the Supreme Court that will be hearing the live hearing on the issue of race and admissions, considered use of race and admissions. That will be on October 31st. So, there will be an opportunity to go through that with some esteemed legal experts, including ACE's general counsel, Pete McDonough, to talk a little bit about that, what to look for in that hearing and what we might expect to see coming out of it. So, additional information on that will be coming out from ACE, but October 25th please join us on the popup. It's obviously going to be a very timely issue. And with that, we're going to have to take a quick break and then come back with the assistant secretary.
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Jon Fansmith: And we are back. As I mentioned at the top of the show, we have a really exciting guest, someone I'm looking forward to talking with very much Dr. Nasser Paydar, who is the assistant secretary for postsecondary education at the Department of Education. Dr. Paydar, thank you so much for joining us today.
Nasser Paydar: Thank you Jon. Delighted to be with you.
Jon Fansmith: It is great to have you. I know Mushtaq and Sarah also have a lot of questions for you, but before we get into this ruthless grilling we're about to subject you to, I wanted to sort give you a chance to introduce yourselves to our audience. You are relatively new to the Department of Education, just confirmed beginning of August, is that correct?
Nasser Paydar: August 8th, as a matter of fact is when I started here at the Department of Education, a week before that I was confirmed. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for the opportunity. Before coming to department, let me talk to you briefly about my background there because that is influencing what we are doing in setting priorities for my office here.
Jon Fansmith: Great.
Nasser Paydar: So, prior to arriving to the Department of Education, I worked for 37 years in higher education at different campuses, different levels, faculty, administrator, associate dean, dean, vice chancellor twice, and chancellor couple of times, I've led three campuses. And prior, the very last position I had was Chancellor of Indiana University, Purdue University, Indianapolis, so IUPUI. And it's a Indiana University campus in Indianapolis, roughly 30,000 student body. I was honored to be the chancellor of that campus for about seven years before starting a department of Education.
Now Jon, there are two ZIP codes in Indianapolis within the driving distance from the campus I was leading, that the life expectancy in these two ZIP codes within driving distance is about 17 years. And same with education level of the two ZIP code areas and number of other issues. So, we doubled down at IUPUI campus years ago, to really focus on educating people that have been left behind, to try to increase need-based aid. Money does make a difference for students, increased need-based aid and increased the way we admit and retain students and brought wraparound programs.
And in about six years, we doubled the four year graduation rate of that campus. The students of color freshmen coming in, went from 19 percent to 40 percent fall of 2021. So, this has been my background, universities, working there and supporting students and focusing on that issue that I think is very important for our country.
So, I came here to the Department of Education. I had met a few people, not a whole lot. I knew that they're outstanding, smart, hardworking staff, but they have surpassed my expectation, that wonderful team here at the Department of Education. I'm delighted and honored to be part of this team to serve our country in this role.
Jon Fansmith: Well and you came into the Department of Education at a really interesting time. I mean, they did not let you have a soft onboarding and a little time to get your feet under you. You hit the ground running. Given everything that's going on and frankly, the fact that higher education in particular in the education space, is the subject of so much national attention in this moment, in part because of the administration's actions. You're coming in, you've got a lot obviously on your plate. Do you have specific goals, things you're really working towards that are priorities for you? Obviously what you just related about your experience at IUPUI speaks to some of the things that are obviously very personal to you, but policy-wise, like you said, you're relatively new to DC. What is your vision for OPE going forward?
Nasser Paydar: Well, I'm learning, but I think the priorities don't change from what I had before coming here. I think the priority number one right now for everyone is recovering from this COVID in a way that it serves everyone. So, this COVID that we went through the issues and we still struggle at parts with it, really affected higher education. We lost number of students and the type of students we lost were the ones that we were trying to save and make sure that they have the support to go forward. So, recovering from this in a way that is equitable for everyone is the priority of the Department of Education and American Rescue Plan, which was the amount of money, $40 billion, that was more than the first two rounds together, really is helping there.
I can say that it's really helping not because I worked for the Department of Education, but I was the recipient, or my campus was recipient some of the funds there. I knew that without the funds from American Rescue Plan, we could have lost a lot of more students. Many of our students don't have the broadband services that we expected them to have because now everything went, three dimensional figures went online, videos went online. So, I remember we piped wifi in our parking lots for people to come and park and do this. Many of the things that we did to save students in the colleges became possible because of the American Rescue Plan.
And today, we are still hearing from the universities and we are going to be receiving their annual reports as to how they've spent the money and what they've done with them funds. So, that's priority number one, to make sure that we get back on track and that we get back all the students that we lost in this period and build on that. So, that's definitely number one priority for us.
Affordability is an important item. If you go back now, I'm old enough to remember '70s, I went to college here in US in the '70s. In the '60s, '70s, The Pell Grant amount was not sufficient exactly to average of tuition it was, maybe it was 80 percent of what you needed to go to college. Now Pell Grant has stayed the same, but at this time in the last 40, 50, 60 years, state support has not grown the way that it used to prior to that. Inflation and other costs have gone up, so tuition has gone up. And so Pell Grant being constant, that gap continue to increase. So, people wanting to go to college, especially we are not getting people that may have not ... they're not coming from families that could support, be able to support 100% of the tuition, so the loans have gone up. So, affordability of college is very important.
So, as you said, it's an exciting time at the Department of Education with the debt relief that was announced my first week or second week on the job here at the Department of Education, that people that have loans up to 10,000, if their income is less than 125K, or the family income is less than 250 or 20,000 would be forgiven if they've had a undergraduate program award. So, that really does help some students.
I mean, a lot of students will benefit from it. Millions are going to be able to wipe out their debt and be able to go back to college, be able to finish that college. You know Jon, you know what's worse than getting a lot of loan going to college? Is taking a lot of loan and not finishing that college degree. And you know, about 40 percent of the individuals that come to our universities and institutions and community colleges, even though they want to finish, they don't finish because life happens. A number of other things happen. So, affordability is the second part of our priorities, to make sure that people can get back and be able to buy things, be able to afford things now going forward.
Of course, we are hoping to have Pell Grant increases going forward, Biden-Harris administration has worked very hard in increasing the Pell Grant this year and that the goal of the administration is to double program by the year 20-
Jon Fansmith: 2029, I think.
Nasser Paydar: ... '29. And that would be wonderful and that is ... I think it is game changer. It really will help people to afford college. So, Pell Grant is another one. And then of course Jon, I can say that because I came from working in a university, universities need to really take control of some of the areas of finishing students. The completion rates should go higher, it is possible. In fact, I just finished at the beginning of this conversation, to say that in about six years we doubled the four year graduation rate of the campus. And so, it is possible to increase that. I think university should increase that, should find ways of having programs that when the graduates graduate, when students graduate, that they can really make a living and be able to afford to pay back that loan going forward. So, these are some of the priorities of the Department of Education.
Mushtaq Gunja: Thank you so much Assistant Secretary Paydar. That was an impressive set of priorities. They seem like exactly the right ones. I'd love to dig into a couple of them, if you don't mind. I'm glad you started with COVID because it really has been a challenge for our institutions and for our students to be able to come out of this pandemic. I think our institutions have done a great job of continuing to educate our students.
But one of the things that we really have noticed here at the American Council on Education, I know it has not been lost on the Biden-Harris administration, is this worry about student mental health. I mean, what we have seen rise to the top of the list of presidential priorities on campuses is really the mental health of students, and staff and faculty as well. I know this is a priority for the administration and I see the surgeon general talking about it all the time, especially lately. Do you want to talk a little bit about what the department is doing, the Department of Education is doing?
Nasser Paydar: Sure. Sure, first echoing what you just said, mental health is an issue that universities are dealing with. And in fact, after COVID it became even a bigger issue for everyone. What mental health does, and I know it firsthand because I saw it at our campus there, it sucks the energy out of students and faculty staff for that matter. It just, motivation goes away. And what it does, it makes it very difficult for them to complete their classes, to complete their degrees. And worse here, there will be other outcomes of mental health.
So, mental health, anyone that you talk to, in fact I know you talked to. I know ACE did a survey and I believe about 75 percent of the chancellors and presidents came out saying that that is one of their top priorities on campuses, dealing with mental health of students. Of course, there are short-term ways of dealing with it, long-term ways of dealing with it. The short term that we are working on in May, we did announce, the department announced that the American Rescue Plan, with the guidance that came out in May, that universities, institutions, can use that funding to support their fight against mental health. I think that helps and we know of many universities that are really looking at ... institutions that are looking at ways of using that funding to support that. Be it by additional counselors, telemedicine, or telehealth, being able to bring in, even sometimes group discussions on certain issues that the stresses that have come because of COVID and prior to COVID, I think that does put a dent in this problem, doesn't solve the entire problem.
We did publish a frequently asked question about mental health that is available and that talks about best practices out there and we need to continue making it a big issue for the higher education in the U.S. And that's what the administration is committed to, to look at ways of assisting our institutions in dealing with this major, major issue of mental health among their staff, along with their faculty and students, of course. They're number one group that we really need to pay attention to.
Mushtaq Gunja: One of the things we've noticed is the differential effects of student mental health on different parts of the campus. I know the Biden administration is hyper-focused on equity and making sure that all of our students are succeeding. Anything you want to say about the equity gaps here as it relates to mental health?
Nasser Paydar: Yeah, I think that the emergency support in the case of for students is really helpful. In this particular area, I saw it firsthand, just a few hundred dollars really helps students to get over some of their issues, the barriers that gives them stress and going forward.
In fact, there is a CDC data that 63 percent of the students that they talked to at universities and other institutions have suggested the mental health is a problem. Now, mental health becomes a bigger issue for people of color. People that are supporting others, the people that have been left behind, people that were working at one point and going to college, they lost that job. So, there are lots of issues there. And again, American Rescue Plan not only helps universities, but does provide additional funding for minority serving institutions, HBCUs, HSIs, and others, to really take advantage of the opportunity to attend to the issue that they have with the students, their students have and deal with some of the issues that stops them from continuing education. And so, that's one of the ways that we are now helping in this particular area.
Sarah Spreitzer: So, Dr. Paydar, you talked about your second big issue is affordability and Jon, the new debt forgiveness plan that was recently announced and everyone is eagerly awaiting the application, which we know is going to come out shortly. But one of the things your office has been involved in is pushing out inflation to students about scams and scammers that might be coming out of the woodwork, trying to take advantage of student loan borrowers. Can you talk a bit about that and what students should be watching out for?
Nasser Paydar: Yeah, it is unfortunate that people take advantage of the situation like this. The disasters that we had in the past, also people took advantage of it and people really follow what they hear out there. So, there is, I think the best advice I could get give, is that there is a frequently asked question on the Department of Education website, dos and don'ts related to this particular issue.
So, we are not going to contact you asking your social security number over the phone. There will be an application form, as you suggested, very soon, that people go through that process. Information will come out soon again from the department in there. So, be careful. If you hear someone come to you and offering you money, saying they represent department of education, you know that is not the right place to talk to. There are over 40 million people who have loans and we are trying to work with them in an appropriate way. So, I would say, just like anything else, be extra careful. Don't share any information. We will not ask those information over the phone or ask you to send it to us in an email.
But more importantly, take a look at the frequently asked question, dos and don'ts. We are constantly updating it based on what we see out there and I appreciate ACE bringing attention to this particular issue. It's really unfortunate. But again, the frequently asked questions will help everyone to see what they shouldn't be doing and what they can do. But more information will come out soon from the appropriate office of the Department of Education.
Sarah Spreitzer: That's great, and we will put that in our show notes, so folks have a link to the FAQs. And then also on affordability, Dr. Paydar, you talked a bit about Pell Grants, which of course is a huge priority for the American Council in Education and something we've been supporting, doubling the Pell Grant. In this new position as the assistant secretary, what is the impact on those programs or perhaps your grant programs, which you have many in OPE, when Congress is in continuing resolution like it is now? What happens to your programs at OPE and how do you try and work around that?
Nasser Paydar: Thank you. Well, we have first of all, outstanding staff in the OPE, or Office of Postsecondary Education, that are working very hard and providing opportunity for institutions to apply for these grants. In fact, last year, this is remarkable, when I learned our staff have awarded 6,100 grants last year. 6,100 grants to the tune of $3.3 billion. And all of them are supporting opportunities for students to go to college, for institutions to serve our students better. And we hope to continue all of the grant programs.
I participated in a meeting in San Diego just about a couple of weeks ago, on TRIO program, and these were the staff of all institutions that were gathered there and also dedicated, wanting to help the students out there that come to universities from different backgrounds to succeed. So, TRIO program is for example, one of the programs that really helps students, especially students that have been left behind. So, there are a number of programs that we have and we hope to continue doing that.
Now, in August, we had an event here in the Department of Education, Raise the BAR. We invited a number of chancellors and presidents of universities to come here and we talked about their role of making students successful. And after they left, we looked at programs and funding that we have here. And we had proposed, I believe it was $62 billion for new grant to degree completion, support student, universities, institutions, so that we didn't get that in the previous attempt at the Congress, but we had about $5 million, which is not much. But I look at it as a down payment that we are offering universities and other institutions to come for proposals that they could submit to increase their degree completion, which is so important. So, many of our programs are going to continue at the levels that we have been continuing. And thanks to our staff, they're reviewing applications and funding it. As I mentioned, over $3 billion was obligated in the last academic or fiscal year.
Sarah Spreitzer: Well, and besides TRIO, you also have GEAR UP.
Nasser Paydar: GEAR UP.
Sarah Spreitzer: And you have the Title VI international programs and a lot of really great grant programs that support our institutions. And so, it'd probably be a good idea in our show notes to also list the kind of programs that are under on the Office of Postsecondary Education. I think that would be helpful for our listeners.
Nasser Paydar: Thank you, Sarah. That would be a great idea, if we can get the word out more using your website. We have number of grants that people would be interested if they start looking into it. And now that they know the level of funding, I hope that they take advantage and apply.
Jon Fansmith: And Dr. Paydar, I was really struck too, you talked about the student success grants, the $5 million towards completion, obviously less than I think we all hoped for, that Congress would provide, but like you, we are very hopeful that this is the foot in the door and that there is more on the way. But that's really important to something else you touched on and Mushtaq raised the idea of equity gaps between students as it comes to mental health, but we've talked about affordability, mental health, there are equity gaps across higher education. I know that's something that's very important to you, so before ... While we still have a few minutes of your valuable time and before we bid you goodbye, just wanted to give you the opportunity to talk a little bit more about other areas of policy that you're looking to specifically address some of these equity challenges that you see and where you think the opportunities for the department lie there.
Nasser Paydar: Yes, I think that, as I mentioned, the percentage of students that we have at most universities that come from marginalized communities, is very low. Jon, I wish this was a video so I could draw some graph, I'm an engineer, but if you really look at the percentage of people who have received baccalaureate degrees in the last 50, 60 years and divided by the wealth of the family they're born into. So, if you look at the top quartile of wealth, people that are born in the top quartile, and I believe that's about a $100,000, $120,000, not billions or millions. So, if you look at that group, maybe 60 years ago, roughly 40 percent of them received baccalaureate degrees. Today they are in the 60s, 62, 65 percent of the top people that are born to wealth top quartile are receiving their baccalaureate degrees.
If you look at the bottom quartile, 60 years ago, was about 3 percent of the population in that group that got baccalaureate degrees, today it's approaching 9 percent or 10 percent. 10percent of people in the bottom quartile of wealth are receiving degrees. Now, who are people in the bottom quartile? Unfortunately, there are a number of people of color that are in the bottom quartile. So, one issue is that getting them motivated, they come from families that don't have higher education, they don't have the financial means, perhaps. I mean, the fact that they're in bottom quartile implies that they don't have the financial means.
So, supporting individuals, encouraging them to go, those are the kinds of things that we need to do in the country and Department of Education is committed in supporting them. Creating more need-based aid at universities and institutions versus merit based. I love merit based. I think there are lots of students that are deserving, but there are people who are outstanding, but maybe they're not number one in their high schools and that they need that money to go to college. So, that's another area that we can help individuals, shrink that equity gap.
But more importantly, Jon, when people get to the campus, the dropout rate about certain individuals and groups is much higher than others. African-American men are dropping out at the highest percentage ever and that's the group that we need to support. And again, institutions can help with that and that's why we established the degree completion grant and try to help institutions. And we hope that we can increase the funding for it to support institutions to support and close the equity gap. If there is one major problem in higher education that we need to pay attention to, is that equity gap that we have in the country. It's moving in the right direction, but not fast enough for anyone's hope.
Jon Fansmith: I think we all know, repairing some of the damage around equity gaps, particularly coming out of the pandemic is ... it's a lot of work. And I know that we are very committed to that, and we're certainly very grateful to you for your work and you're making this a point of emphasis at the department. While I'm thanking you for things, I'll also say, you have a tremendous staff, you already highlighted that. They have been incredible in terms of responsiveness to us and our institutional members. Your point about the mental health guidance, that's one of those that we hear from people all the time, about how appreciative they are for the department of working with them to identify areas where this money really can go to help students and that collaborative nature. It's been very fantastic. So, we are very grateful to you and your team for all the work you've done.
We are also very grateful for you, for coming on and taking the time. I know got a few things going on at the office, so taking the time out is really pretty special and we appreciate it. So, thank you so much for joining us today.
Nasser Paydar: Thank you. It is my pleasure. And I look forward to working with ACE and other associations to move our agenda forward. We have an energetic, outstanding secretary of education, Miguel Cordona. You listen to him and you feel like he has the support of students in his heart and he wants to work with associations and other institutions to move our agenda forward. So, thank you again for the opportunity to talk with you.
Jon Fansmith: Thank you so much. And we will of course, be in touch going forward. Maybe we can get you back on another time.
Nasser Paydar: Thank you.
Jon Fansmith: All right, and thanks to all of you for listening and keep an eye out for our next episode.
Sarah Spreitzer: As always, you can check out earlier episodes and subscribe to dotEDU on Apple, Google Podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you listen to your podcast. For show notes and links to the resources mentioned in the episode, you can go to our website at a acnet.edu\podcast. While there, please take a short survey to let us know how we're doing. You can also email us at podcast@acenet.edu to give us suggestions on upcoming shows and guests. And finally, a very big thank you to the producers who help pull this podcast together. Laurie Arnston, Audrey Hamilton, Malcolm Moore, Anthony Trueheart, Rebecca Morris, Jack Nicholson, and Fatma Ngom. They do an incredible job making this happen and making Jon, Mushtaq, and I, sound as good as possible. Finally, thank you so much to all of you for listening.